Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
[0:20] <kymara> night night
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[9:32] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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[9:32] * Topic is 'Stendhal 0.73 and Marauroa 2.6.1 released: http://arianne.sourceforge.net/?arianne_url=games/game_stendhal#downloadsection][ public server: http://stendhal.game-host.org ][ want to chat?: /join #arianne-chat ] [ ANY QUESTIONS?: Just ask them and stick around in the channel, maybe an answer will pop up later ]'
[9:32] * Set by kymara on Tue Mar 31 18:35:38 CEST 2009
[9:32] [freenode-connect VERSION]
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[10:24] <kymara> for info: if people want URLS in news items or events you need to use html to format them, thanks
[10:25] * durkham hugs kymara
[10:25] <kymara> i'll fix the link on news atm which isnt a link
[10:25] <kymara> morning bug
[10:26] * durkham whispers come to chat and i huggle you to the ground
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[10:41] <postman-bot> Administrator SHOUTS: Sorry I know this is annoying but I need to restart server *again*! Can you be ready to logout in 3 minutes? Thanks
[10:44] <postman-bot> Administrator SHOUTS: Hi, sorry but I need to restart server. Could you logout now and return in a few minutes? Thanks!
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[11:06] <kymara> is anyone other than me likley to restart the server next time it needs it (liek if there's one of those fatal crashes?)
[11:09] <kymara> well, if so, please unzip ~kymara/stendhal-server-0.73.zip and replace All (A) first
[11:10] <kymara> (i dont like to replace the jars when the server is already running incase that does something icky)
[11:14] <kymara> osl http://stendhal.game-host.org/wiki/index.php/SplashScreens 2nd splash from javyd added
[11:16] <kymara> was anyone specifically asked to provide a german translation like the spanish one yet? just one sentence
[11:19] <durkham> when clicking on the 'you can test'-link i get an permission denied error
[11:20] <durkham> when i jump to survey i still dont see any
[11:21] <durkham> q osl
[11:21] <durkham> @
[11:22] <kymara> argh and it comes up with my name :D
[11:23] <durkham> yep , but i did not follow that advice :-D
[11:25] <Mein_Dino> huh? [11:17] <mib_2qf3q5> hi kannst du mir sagen wo magic city ist ich finde das nicht
[11:25] <kymara> phew
[11:25] <Mein_Dino> ups wrong channel :D
[11:25] <kymara> mein dino just use ignore it works in irc too :D
[11:25] <Mein_Dino> :P
[11:28] <kymara> any objection to me changing the names of raid scripts
[11:28] <kymara> StrikeFromTheWoods and UndeadRising are nice but the players dont see them
[11:29] <kymara> and i can't remember if its BlordroughsRevengeRaid or BlordroughAttackRaid or BlordourghRevengeRaid (no s)
[11:29] <kymara> would rather have one set system like BlordroughRaid, DrowRaid, ElfRaid, ZombieRaid
[11:30] <kymara> I was trying to tell kiheru the raid names yesterday and had to spell them out whereas always singular creature name + raid would be a lot easier
[11:30] <kymara> of course theres not only zombies in a zombie raid but they typify what is tehre
[11:30] <kymara> and so they also are a good indictaor of who the raid is suitable for
[11:30] <durkham> make it so
[11:31] <kymara> ok :) i will add also some more for lower levels
[11:31] <durkham> yay
[11:31] <kymara> atm there is only really SmallForces and perhaps UndeadRising if you're careful
[11:31] <kymara> but there can be more
[11:32] <durkham> i love small forces
[11:32] <durkham> the piglet riders
[11:32] <durkham> yay
[11:38] <kymara> yes lol
[11:38] <kymara> that will be GnomeRaid
[11:38] <kymara> cos it's mostly gnomes
[11:42] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/ (14 files in 3 dirs):
[11:42] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: made anonymous inner classes top level ones to reduce cyclic dependencies.
[11:42] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: adding tests
[12:12] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: kymara * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/script/ (24 files): (log message trimmed)
[12:12] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: Change the atmospheric but hard to remember raid names to all be like DrowRaid,
[12:12] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: DwarfRaid, BlordroughRaid as it's really otherwise too hard to tell them to
[12:12] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: others or remember them. now the name is reflective of what level it is suitable
[12:12] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: for (You wouldn't use a LichRaid on low level players but LivingBonesRaid (the
[12:12] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: old name) sounds like it could just be skeletons etc. add to the javadoc a
[12:12] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: **subjective** guess from me of what players each raid would not be safe for.
[12:12] <kymara> buh
[12:12] <kymara> Also added some new raids: angel, kobold, farm, animal, chaos, dragon, elemental. it omitted to say
[12:14] <kymara> you should be able to use any raid in the fado battle pit as you have to be level 150 to get in there, they do spawn some boss creatures but those in there should be ok fighting them or if not know how to cope :)
[12:19] <kymara> tz tz and double tz
[12:19] <kymara> the raid scripts arent using raid creature
[12:19] <kymara> so unlike summoned and plague creatures, if one kills you you lose skills
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[12:43] <osl> the wiki links for testing the survey should work now and there's a translation section added: http://stendhal.game-host.org/wiki/index.php/SplashScreens
[12:43] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: kymara * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/script/CreateRaid.java: use RaidCreature for the raids screated with a script, else players lose stats when one of these creatures in a raid kills them ...
[12:43] <kymara> is it clear that the test is only a test
[12:44] <kymara> and that if people want to vote later after all the screens are submitted, their tets vote doesnt count?
[12:44] <kymara> they may think that as they already voted in the test one that is enough
[12:52] <osl> AFAIK the survey can't be made publicly accessible without activating it, in fact, I will have to reset it when the submissions term expires. So I will write that it is a test somewhere where it's visible.
[13:04] <osl> I've added test warnings, feel free to comment about if they are visible enough or other alternatives
[13:11] <osl> durkham: tigertoes asked some time ago about reactivating project/task management. What do you think about using one of the existing offers at SF (TaskFreak!, dotProject) and releasing you and your server from the burden? would be these alternatives good enough?
[13:12] <kymara> i think we should first review what we need the management tools for
[13:14] <kymara> is it for a designer to write the brief for an idea, which a coder can then code (designer can == coder but design should not think about code details too much).
[13:14] <kymara> plone kind of did that well except that it required wayyyyy too much logging from the coder, of every task and how much time taken etc etc
[13:14] <kymara> it was more designed for business perhaps were time sheets are needed? i don tknow
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[13:21] <kymara> we agreed in stendhal that new ideas would be checked by the design leader (that is me) before any work starts on them, because the world's future direction needs controlling. but i'm not sure why a tool is helpful for that. so far they just seem to increase the workload and not help manage it. discussing in emails or irc was always ok by me - or using trackers. it's just a discussion between 2 people after all - me and the designer. likewise the desi
[13:22] <kymara> i dont know what the apps which sf support, offer. have you looked into that osl?
[13:23] <osl> I'm looking right now
[13:24] <kiheru> the main advantage I see for a management app would be splitting a task to smaller pieces. the trackers don't do enough and plone wanted too much attention (and filling in irrelevant data)
[13:24] <osl> I don't think that a 2-person discussion is the optimal model for developing ideas. I'd like it to be a process open to more people.
[13:25] <kymara> what was the thing you wanted to write up, anyway tigertoes?
[13:25] <kymara> osl, it was agreed that ideas were run through a single person. actually i was coerced into it due to the need for it. it was not my plan.
[13:26] <kymara> developing ideas isnt what we are talkign about
[13:26] <kymara> this is about ideas which have been formed and now want to be coded
[13:26] <kymara> they should first go past me. just like, if they need new code structure, that should go past durkham
[13:26] <osl> yes, leadership is necessary to ultimately take a decision when there isn't agreement
[13:27] <kymara> No
[13:27] <osl> but recurring to leadership systematically isn't optimal
[13:27] <kymara> osl i am afraid you have got this wrong
[13:27] <kiheru> it's not about disagreements. the game just needs somewhat coherent design
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[13:31] <osl> I don't get when and how the single person filter acts :/
[13:32] <durkham> iirc we agreed that is we as team cannot agree on something that then for sesign you kymara has the last word(veto) and i have for codey things
[13:32] <kiheru> as in, making sure that new designs fit well in the game world. adding random things is no good. (not wanting to give any specific examples as there's little point hashing old things)
[13:32] <durkham> that what the veto part was for
[13:33] <kiheru> veto can be too late, if the new thing is not discussed before added
[13:34] <durkham> as long as we do not discuss on stuff here openly in advance we are lost anyway
[13:34] <osl> so, we're talking about the first stage when someone suggests a rough idea and it is then considered seriously for inclusion in the game?
[13:35] <durkham> imho the problem is not on the tools
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[13:35] <osl> I don't see how that affects the development of the idea which happens later
[13:36] <kymara> osl, why cant you trust us
[13:36] <kymara> we know from past experience that there are difficulties if things are added to game (by peopel with cvs access) without being discussed in advance
[13:36] <kymara> so a rule was made to discuss new game ideas and it needed a central person and i was asked to do it. i didnt make that rule i wasn't even around then
[13:36] <kymara> i was asked to rejoin project in that capacity
[13:36] <durkham> thats why we will remove things if they are not agreed on
[13:37] <durkham> that is
[13:37] <kymara> yes but then someone has wasted a lot of work and they get huffy
[13:37] <kymara> better to talk in the early planning stages
[13:37] <durkham> well because THEY did not ask BEFORE
[13:37] <durkham> that is in fact not our problem
[13:37] <kymara> ok, so we didnt need to bother with the design and code leader idea
[13:37] <kymara> we can just always revert
[13:38] <durkham> no
[13:38] <durkham> that is not true
[13:38] <kymara> and we dont need to remind people to discuss ideas here, or get final approval for gfx from kiheru, code from you and design from me?
[13:38] <durkham> i did not say that did i?
[13:38] <osl> I don't see how this first filtering relates to task management
[13:39] <durkham> roughly spoken we have to discuss all stuff here,
[13:39] <durkham> if ideas wont fit, we (kym and i) are to decide so
[13:39] <durkham> if some one does not discuss or ignore discission taken it will be removed
[13:40] <osl> seems fair
[13:40] <osl> they assume the risk
[13:40] <durkham> so when kym says all things has to go past her first. i think it is just to keep ppl from working on stuff in vain
[13:41] <kymara> osl: re I don't see how this first filtering relates to task management, why do you think i said, kymara: i think we should first review what we need the management tools for
[13:41] <durkham> the problem with irc is a) it is hard to find and collect all things said here b) it is not asynchronous enough
[13:42] <durkham> where b can be an advantage too .-D
[13:42] <kymara> well the other problem is that some people still dont discuss at all. and many people are guilty of that not just one person
[13:42] <osl> yes, indeed, it would be interesting to know what features are liked or not about task management
[13:42] <durkham> yes kym that is true
[13:43] <osl> kiheru has pointed the ability to split ideas into smaller ones
[13:43] <osl> and kymara has criticized the excessive scheduling control forced by some apps
[13:44] <kymara> also the first step in adding an idea is not adding it to a management tool, i believe.
[13:44] <kymara> which is what i was starting by saying
[13:45] <osl> yes, I think the spontaneity of irc is at the same time its strength and its weakness
[13:45] <kymara> and i do not think everything should have to go through the tool
[13:45] <kymara> its just thee if you want to use it. to help. else it can hinder
[13:47] <durkham> that is what i meant plone for. but hey who cares
[13:47] <kymara> yes, but we pointed the drawbacks of plone
[13:47] <kymara> we did use it
[13:47] <kymara> i did
[13:47] <osl> well, the idea has to be posted somewhere in an accessible way (which excludes irc logs) and ideally it shouldn't be moved too far to begin to work on it
[13:47] <kymara> so dont get moody about that. i gave it a really fair go.
[13:47] <durkham> yes , first issue you had was , you have to log into it
[13:47] <kiheru> plone wanted too much irrelevant data to my taste :-/ though it did some things reasonably
[13:47] <kymara> look at my hours work built up on it
[13:47] <durkham> i am not moody
[13:48] <durkham> i offered to change it to our needs , but then it was already too late
[13:48] <kymara> why+
[13:49] <durkham> it was too late because it was already ignored
[13:49] <osl> let's leave plone aside for a while. Let's just think generally or we may end up trapped in the past :)
[13:49] <durkham> we start at a similar point we had in the past
[13:49] <kymara> why leave it aside
[13:49] <kymara> it already has loads of stuff saved on it
[13:49] <osl> At the present ideas are submitted to the trackers
[13:49] <kymara> so can't we consider using it still before jumping to a new thing?
[13:50] <durkham> dotproject has loads of problems copying subtask from one project / subproject to another
[13:50] <kymara> osl: be wary of making statements that are not wholly true
[13:50] <kymara> At the present SOME ideas are submitted to the trackers
[13:50] <osl> and the others are worked on implicitly you mean?
[13:51] <durkham> for example i do not add my things to any tracker atm
[13:51] <durkham> i just do refactoring, untill i can get on again
[13:51] <osl> well, I want to get to the limitations of the current trackers
[13:51] <kymara> some are discussed in irc, some get discussed in private, some get worked on without discussing to anyoen and just committed.
[13:52] <osl> and don't you think we could get some benefit from unifying the working process?
[13:52] <kymara> i use trackers to add things that i thinkwould be a good idea but i am not going to work on right away
[13:52] <kymara> osl: i am answering your questions.
[13:53] <kymara> i didnt say anything about unifying the process, for or against, i just answered the question osl: and the others are worked on implicitly you mean?
[13:53] <kiheru> some things just don't need a heavy development process
[13:53] <kymara> dont assume i mean or say anything that i dont, please.
[13:53] <kymara> some ideas of my own i can work on right away
[13:53] <osl> I wasn't assuming anything
[13:53] <kymara> i may discuss them here, or i discuss with a couple of other devels
[13:54] <kymara> i rarely do anything without discussing with at least soemone, and mostly i try to discuss here to set a good example about discussing ideas
[13:54] <kymara> my ideas on tracker that i submitted myself, i work on afterwards later even if noone commented on them. i frequently go through the tracker to comment on other peopels ideas
[13:54] <kymara> and close ones which are really not workable
[13:56] <osl> I'm suggesting that if there was just a single place to look at, perhaps the chance of people commenting on ideas would increase
[13:57] <durkham> if that was the case the feature tracker would have had more traffic in the past
[13:57] <osl> and if ideas could be refined from that same place some kind of synergy could happen
[13:57] <kymara> i dont think people commenting is the issue. its people not actually putting them forward in the first place that has been the cause of a lot of problems
[13:58] <kymara> i am not sure how many times we have to repeat that, kiheru durkham and i have all said it now.
[13:58] <osl> but people commenting may encourage commitment
[13:59] <durkham> osl you run in circles
[13:59] <kymara> you started the conversation as you wanted tigertoes to have an answer to her question i think
[13:59] <kymara> can we now answer the question, which is 'what idea did you want to add to a managment tool? please discuss that, thanks'
[13:59] <osl> the user base is hardly involved in providing feedback for development considering its size
[14:00] <kymara> when we want feedback from players a good way is on the forums, i have noticed
[14:00] <kymara> and you dont know what you say, either, as you dont know how much we talk to players
[14:00] <kymara> unless you can access chat logs ;)
[14:00] <durkham> db wise you mean :-D
[14:01] <kymara> yep
[14:02] <osl> which supports an old idea about letting players provide feedback directly from the client, instead of using the browser :)
[14:02] <durkham> which leads back to , if you want to code it please let us know what how youwant to do it
[14:02] <kymara> which is yet another red herring, may we get back on with some work now, have we entertained you enough for today?
[14:02] <durkham> if you are no or have no developer .....
[14:03] <osl> bbl
[14:03] <durkham> in addition user give feedback using /support now and then
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[15:02] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: kymara * stendhal/data/conf/zones/nalwor.xml:
[15:02] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: use ShopSign instead of hand configured sign for merenwen to fix 2789507. TBH, shopsign shoudl always be used unless there is a very good reason otherwise as else more than one place must be updated
[15:02] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: when shop changes.
[15:05] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/ (17 files in 3 dirs):
[15:05] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: bye cycle
[15:05] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: all values needed are passed rather than called
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[15:53] <kiheru> does anyone else have trouble using stendhal.quest.regex? I can no longer get it work, and now I can't use even the zone regex since the server crashes trying to load the quests (that seems like new behaviour)
[15:56] <erdnuggel> you mean this kiheru?: http://stendhal.game-host.org/wiki/index.php/StendhalQuest
[16:01] <durkham> tbh i never got it working at all
[16:01] <durkham> if you can provide more info on the kind of crash , maybe i can figure if i broke it
[16:01] <durkham> or at least at which quest it crashes
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[16:11] <kymara> no erdnuggel it's a switch when you start the server
[16:12] <kymara> durkham: he was loading only semos zones (say) which used to make quests calling NPCs in other zones just not able to load. but now it crashes the server (first quest)
[16:12] <kymara> so that was using the zone regex
[16:13] <kymara> like java -Dstendhal.testserver=junk -Dstendhal.zone.regex=".*semos.*" -Xmx200m -cp $CP marauroa.server.marauroad -c server.ini
[16:13] <kymara> where you had defined your cp
[16:14] <kymara> the quest regex is similar and used to work, i used to use it when i was only testing house buying
[16:14] <kymara> i would do -Dstendhal.quest.regex=".*HouseBuying.*" say
[16:14] <kymara> which matches and loads all quests with Housebuying in name
[16:15] <erdnuggel> ah, ok kymara, thanks ;o)
[16:15] <kymara> to make it load no quests at all since they were crashing he tried -Dstendhal.quest.regex=".*nothing.*"
[16:15] <kymara> as no quest has nothing in title so none would match
[16:15] <kymara> but it is ignored
[16:15] <kymara> zone regex still works ok, you can do just semos ones say
[16:16] <kymara> (he's not replying atm as he is cursing at inkscape and not noticign irc)
[16:16] <kymara> but if you need more info just say
[16:16] <kymara> kiheru: could you paste the error or did you already shut down eclipse?
[16:17] <kymara> he cant but i can, iäll pastebin it
[16:18] <kymara> http://pastebin.ca/1418257
[16:18] <kymara> that was just running with all quests loaded but only semos zones
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[16:18] <kymara> they used to not load, but not crash server either
[16:18] <kymara> i can go get the error message that they used to give out then too if you liek
[16:20] <kymara> i dont think it being ados deathmatch is relevant cos thats just the fist tried to load. when i tell zones regex to load ados zones then the ados one loads fine and its the next (amazon) that crashes
[16:20] <kymara> INFO [marauroad ] StendhalQuestSystem (210 ) - Loading Quest: AdosDeathmatch
[16:20] <kymara> INFO [marauroad ] StendhalQuestSystem (210 ) - Loading Quest: AmazonPrincess
[16:20] <kymara> ERROR [marauroad ] StendhalRPRuleProcessor (180 ) - cannot set Context. exiting
[16:32] <erdnuggel> please can someone read in #arianne support?
[16:46] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/ (2 files in 2 dirs):
[16:46] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: adding try catch block for use with zone.regex
[16:46] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: moving init of housetax in HouseBuyingMain so error on initialization wont blow the server
[16:48] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/core/rp/StendhalQuestSystem.java: readding quest load filter
[16:49] <durkham> sorry for inconveniance
[16:50] <durkham> probably i should leave that darn cludgy code as it is
[16:51] <durkham> the way it is , it is nearly untestable, as long as it is not covered, i cannot be sure , i dont break things
[16:51] <durkham> and seemingly it hinders other from adding more code
[16:56] * dino^afk is now known as Mein_Dino
[17:01] <kymara> it wasn't a problem
[17:01] <kymara> he just turned off the zone regex and loaded full instead for the lcoal testing
[17:01] <kymara> i hope it didn't seem like anyone was annoyed about it
[17:05] <postman-bot> slayfers rented a sign saying "Happy Mother's Day :D"
[17:07] <durkham> prolly my problem , blowing off, sorry
[17:09] <kymara> that's ok
[17:11] * durkham sits in a much too warm room with too few oxigen
[17:15] * madmetzger1 (n=markus@p5B03EF11.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #arianne
[17:33] * madmetzger (n=markus@p5B03C4B8.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[17:36] * madmetzger1 (n=markus@p5B03EF11.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #arianne
[17:45] * Bluelads4 is now known as Bluelads4_away
[17:47] * Bluelads4_away (i=5084da0e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-44cde2be6e419fa0) Quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
[17:48] * love_puppet (n=gizmo_th@98.80.25.123) has joined #arianne
[17:56] <durkham> i just rejected the 3 open patches for stendhal
[18:02] * love_puppet (n=gizmo_th@98.80.25.123) Quit ("blarg")
[18:12] <kymara> can we unassign arianne_rpg from the remaing two as it seems clear they will not be done by now
[18:13] <kymara> one of them, the db one i may be able to review
[18:13] <durkham> i wonder if i dare to apply the patch i committed :-D
[18:13] <kymara> yes yes :)
[18:13] <kymara> but review it first as the patch requests :P
[18:14] <durkham> the other one is the carrots not shown on webpage patch
[18:14] <kymara> yes
[18:15] <kymara> i have reviewed the patch itself some time ago
[18:15] <kymara> to try to see what it did
[18:15] <kymara> its a patch on stendhal not the website
[18:15] <kymara> as it is stendhal storing stuff wrongly in character_stats
[18:15] <durkham> webpage made me look away immedeately :-D
[18:15] <kymara> it patches StendhalPlayerDatabase
[18:15] <kymara> :)
[18:15] <durkham> i can review that one if you like
[18:16] <durkham> if you do the marauroa one then :-D
[18:16] <kymara> nooo :D
[18:17] <kymara> i'm away tonight, and all day tm, and back tues morning
[18:17] <kymara> does that get me out of it?
[18:17] <kymara> they've been priority 9 since last year, set by the person who assigned them to himself :P
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[18:29] * kymara (n=katie@afrodite.yok.utu.fi) Quit ("Leaving.")
[18:36] <durkham> bbl
[18:37] * durkham (n=astrid@c168141.adsl.hansenet.de) has left #arianne
[20:25] * durkham (n=astrid@c168141.adsl.hansenet.de) has joined #arianne
[20:55] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/core/engine/StendhalPlayerDatabase.java:
[20:55] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: applying Patch 2190332 fixing
[20:55] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: 2007096 website confused about hands and does not show carrots
[20:55] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: thanks to dssj for providing the patch
[20:56] <love_puppet> does this also fix not seeing both sword? like the twin sword?
[20:56] <durkham> guess so yes
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[22:06] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/client/gui/buddies/ (7 files): reducing visibility
[22:33] * erdnuggel (n=blub@93.212.45.226) Quit ()
[23:17] * gummipferd (n=user@92.117.64.26) Quit ("Leaving.")
[23:43] <CIA-50> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/ (3 files in 2 dirs): bye cycle
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