Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
[0:07] <kymara> unless you're the recipient you can't verify, gummipferd, unless you have server access. we don't act on hearsay, so unless you really trust the person reporting, you can't act on it. server admins can verify by looking at the db if t's deemed serious.
[0:07] <kymara> most often spamming cases that are reported have happened 'out loud' anyway
[0:08] <kymara> i thought spamming had always been punished, it just seemed to be an unwritten rule ...
[0:08] <kymara> i thought it was better to make some of these 'common sense' rules be written down in real
[0:09] <kymara> niught
[0:17] <gummipferd> thanks kymara, night
[0:17] <yoriy> good night, kym
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[10:45] <postman-bot> ejcruz rented a sign saying "hi :0"
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[11:29] <yoriy> hi all :-)
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[15:22] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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[15:22] * Topic is 'Stendhal 0.72 and Marauroa 2.6 released: http://arianne.sourceforge.net/?arianne_url=games/game_stendhal#downloadsection][ public server: http://stendhal.game-host.org ][ want to chat?: /join #arianne-chat ][ ANY QUESTIONS?: Just ask them and stick around in the channel, maybe an answer will pop up later ]'
[15:22] * Set by kymara on Sun Feb 22 23:37:04 CET 2009
[15:22] [freenode-connect VERSION]
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[15:47] <postman-bot> erdnuggel rented a sign saying "I sell 1 chaos hammer for 200k"
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[16:52] <durkham> this question of march 18 is still pending : [15:46] <durkham2> how should trading items for money be presented to the users
[16:53] <durkham> and i thought i also had asked for how the new client should be presented to the user.
[17:09] <madmetzger> via npc?
[17:09] <madmetzger> like selling items to an npc the npc could take care of the offerings
[17:11] <madmetzger> following dialogue could be an example on how to do it
[17:11] <madmetzger> player: offer 2 cheese for 4 gold *(greeting already done)
[17:12] <madmetzger> shopnpc: okay i take your offer of 2 cheese for 4 gold
[17:12] <durkham> i wont be able to answer that, as i my competence ends beyond spaces in code
[17:14] <madmetzger> but this is only for adding offers
[17:15] <madmetzger> to list the offers i think it is reasonable to ask the shopnpc to show all offers
[17:15] <madmetzger> then a panel with offerings could popup and you can accept via context menu
[17:16] <durkham> when i was still thinking about user interface i was thinking of a clickable window that presents alls the item, as the raw thing that is already implemented for our tests
[17:24] <madmetzger> i think the raw window is a good base, if you display a list of all current offers
[17:27] <kiheru_afk> a clickable window sounds right to me. (if I have understood it right; so that this is about players trading among themselves). showing a list of items to be traded, and money, and then letting both the players either accept or decline after the list has been fixed
[17:29] <kiheru_afk> the exact layout of the window will probably require changes after it's been initially presented to testers anyway. it's hard to predict what users find intuitive
[17:29] <madmetzger> kiheru_afk: atm it is more kind of a black board, the window would show all current offers of players#+
[17:30] <kiheru_afk> kind of like auctioning?
[17:30] <madmetzger> it is *not* a possible full replacement of the trading table
[17:30] <madmetzger> it is kind of ebay without bidding just the buy right now option
[17:31] <madmetzger> kind of a supermarket, you see an item in the board and can buy it for the displayed price
[17:31] <kiheru_afk> ah, ok. I haven't read the code so my idea of it was inaccurate
[17:31] <madmetzger> no problem
[17:32] <madmetzger> a full replacement for trading between two players would be more difficult
[17:33] <madmetzger> but i think it is a good thing as we have at some times several signs in semos like "I sell 1 chaos hammer for 200k"
[17:33] <kymara> perhaps, but i thought durkham wanteda design spec
[17:34] <kymara> and that would be, that players often like to trade item for item. eventually we need to get rid of the trading table. although it works well if used as designed, players do not use it correctly often
[17:34] <durkham> i wanted to know how the trade thingy mad an i are working on should be presented to the user.
[17:34] <madmetzger> and i made a suggestion
[17:35] <kymara> ok sorry durkham, your original question didnt' say it was only money
[17:35] <durkham> the player to player trade would be another feature, that is why i asked to tell us if the buy now thingy is not wished at all
[17:35] <kymara> you didn't say 'is it wished' ? did you?
[17:35] <kymara> you wanted to know how to present it ...
[17:36] <kymara> i think it would still be useful
[17:36] <durkham> [15:46] <durkham2> how should trading items for money be presented to the users
[17:36] <durkham> [15:47] <durkham2> it is a allways on trading panel where the offering and the accepting user need not be online at the same time
[17:36] <durkham> [15:47] <durkham2> proxy trade so to say
[17:36] <durkham> [15:48] <durkham2> if that is not wanted at all, please tell us too
[17:37] <durkham> as of march 18
[17:37] <kymara> yeah, that's the one that i knew you and mad were working on, you'd been discussing it here too
[17:38] <durkham> yes and kih said i shall ask how to present it to the user , and that is what i did
[17:38] <kymara> what is going to make you happy?
[17:38] <durkham> i do not think that my happiness, is under discussion
[17:38] <kymara> the questions just seemed like a reaction to the previous discussion
[17:39] <kymara> and they seemed irrelevant since we have alreayd said thinsg about trade being good
[17:39] <kymara> and about trade being good but it doesn't have to be in next release
[17:39] <kymara> why would you think it was not wanted?
[17:39] <madmetzger> sorry, but i have to leave for a moment
[17:39] <madmetzger> bbl
[17:40] <kymara> as i said, they just seemed like a reaction to the previous discussion. if you genuinely both need direction because you don't think the design is working out, then please could you give something more specific. like 'is this ok?' so far i haven't seen the gui in cvs client so it's really quite hard to comment.
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[17:42] <durkham> well with food mill it was the wrong way round, so i wanted to make sure this time i have it right, was wrong again. sorry
[17:46] <kymara> you don't come across as genuinely wanting to cooperate when you say things like 'my competence ends beyond spaces in code'
[17:46] <durkham> sorry
[17:47] <durkham> i try to find my position
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[18:01] <kymara> ok. i've been trying to understand more how it'd work. it's a blackboard and you have a list of items and prices you are willing to sell, and you tell an npc about it. what i'm unsure about is how to get the items from the player. i might tell npc i have a chaos hammer i wish to sell for 200k, and then i put it in my bank chest. even if i'm online when another player comes and says he wants to buy the hammer, the npc can't access my
[18:01] <kymara> player chest.
[18:02] <durkham> the server side part of it is nearly done, it is by an rpobject stored in zone
[18:02] <kymara> does the trading centre take the item when you first offer it up for sale?
[18:02] <durkham> yes
[18:03] <kymara> ah ok :) and then we only get the money when someone buys
[18:03] <kymara> ?
[18:03] <durkham> imho a npc was not needed, if it be done by an usable item
[18:03] <durkham> yes
[18:04] <kymara> ok, that's fine if no npc is needed i like that anyway
[18:04] <kymara> please can we avoid a little abuse, by making it not possible to get your item back unless you pay some kind of fee for the storage
[18:05] <kymara> else you could go buy your own item back and have just used the space as 'storage' (our players are sneaky :P i am just trying to anticipate teh sneakiness)
[18:05] <durkham> as we have a fee for setting up items i was thinking about fees for setting up offers
[18:05] <durkham> setting up signs
[18:05] <kymara> ok
[18:06] <kymara> that's fair
[18:06] <kymara> can players have a 'want to buy' aswell
[18:07] <durkham> that could be done in a second step aswell , i guess
[18:12] <durkham> imho seperated buyer seller windows would be better than having them all on one
[18:13] <kiheru_afk> there should probably be a limit on items for sale/player. otherwise it's still tempting to use it an extra bank
[18:14] <kiheru_afk> sounds reasonable to me having separate windows for those~
[18:20] <kiheru_afk> (the feature itself is very useful, btw. at least I have a ton of items I'm just too lazy to announce with signs)
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[19:03] <madmetzger> hi
[19:04] <madmetzger> npc was just a first shot from me, as i thought it wouldn't need extra gui
[19:04] <madmetzger> and the npc could tell everything about fees
[19:05] <madmetzger> but a npc could stand next to the black board and explain everything
[19:10] <durkham> when i first thought about how to make the gui for it, i was thinking of a kind of portal that makes you enter into a trade zone, which is presented to the user as trade interface only. that would make the user who execute trade, be separated from all possible interference from outside.
[19:10] <durkham> i had the idea when i tried to sell stuff to that girl in gnome city
[19:11] <durkham> which is impossible to weak characters as you are attacked the whole time
[19:11] <durkham> ( at least for me)
[19:11] <durkham> so you would 'use' the trade thing and be whisked to a 'zone' but youonly see the trade interface
[19:12] <durkham> (the code experiments led to vaults)
[19:22] <madmetzger> okay, sounds reasonable
[19:27] <durkham> just my 2 cents
[19:30] <durkham> to be complete . i have not yet thought about how to implement that.
[19:31] <madmetzger> what do you think of a combination of both?
[19:31] <madmetzger> having an individual zone and deal with the shop assistant
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[20:26] <CIA-52> ow
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[22:51] <yoriy> hi, osl :-)
[22:52] <osl> I like the idea of using an NPC as a proxy trader: she could take a fixed fee for each item to be sold. And the process of setting it up could be made as similar as possible as that of the buyer NPC in semos, with a dynamically generated blackboard. Thus, users would be already familiar with it.
[22:53] <osl> hi, yoriy
[22:57] <kymara> but if we *dont* use an npc we don't have to deal with parser being confusing :D
[22:58] <osl> I think delayed trading naturally happens more often than instant trading (because the chances of having a seller and a buyer online at the same time are lower) and so should be implemented first even if it doesn't encourage interaction between players
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[23:01] <yoriy> can you explain me, black boards will show only sell offers, or buy requests too?
[23:02] <osl> Players that don't speak the same language can be even more confusing as they aren't forced to follow a fixed scheme. :)
[23:03] <kymara> i'd have thought they'd all have been of the same format osl
[23:03] <kymara> the notices
[23:03] <kymara> not in player chosen expression
[23:03] <kymara> but i don't know as i haven't seen the code
[23:04] <kymara> yoriy: i think the 'buy request' hasn't been fully explored yet as an idea, and it's certainly not been coded yet, so that detail is yet to be decided
[23:06] <kymara> are we also putting our energies into testing ready for the next release, btw?
[23:07] <yoriy> i want test it :-)
[23:07] <kymara> i'll happily accept screenshots in the style of the ones on the news articles which demonstrate the new changes - just think a chance to appear on arianne.sf.net :P they must be 250 pixels wide, and can be scaled to that size, so keep that in mind when you take any shots. keep them compact so that you don't have to scale it loads to get it under 250
[23:07] <osl> I think it shows a nice symmetry: in that case, you'd be selling your money for the price of an item. :)
[23:07] <kymara> yes osl - would the npc take the money also?
[23:08] <kymara> in the same way that he would take the item from seller,and pay seller when there's a buyer
[23:08] <kymara> would he likewise take the money from prospective buyer and furnish the item when a seller has been found?
[23:09] <osl> that was the pinky cloud idea :)
[23:10] <osl> the problem is that it is easier that the player makes a mistake and tries to buy sth which doesn't exist for being misspelt
[23:12] <kymara> it's very easy to check if an item is defined or not osl
[23:13] <kymara> if you try creating a creature that drops an 'osl' then on server load it says warning, creature blah is dropping nonexisting item osl
[23:13] <kymara> (just for exmaple)
[23:14] <yoriy> :-)
[23:14] <osl> I think that when the player sets the price for an item the NPC should ask for confirmation as well, showing the current price
[23:14] <kymara> i dont see why an npc is needed
[23:15] <osl> what do you suggest?
[23:15] <kymara> hasn't durkham already suggested a trade gui?
[23:15] <kymara> it's earlier in the logs
[23:15] <kymara> and there's been some work on it
[23:15] <osl> I think it seems easier for now to implement and more familiar to the user
[23:15] <kymara> i don't suggest anythign myself, but durkham thought it is not necessary, and if it's not necessary then in fact i'd liek to see npcs *not* used for something ...
[23:16] <kymara> no, i think users find it hard talking to npcs still
[23:16] <osl> using a gui?
[23:16] <kymara> imagine if you had to tell an npc everything you wanted to put in your bank chest
[23:16] <kymara> wait for yes and nos etc etc
[23:16] <kymara> have lots of people all saying hi and wanting to talk at once
[23:17] <kymara> or what if we had to ask an npc to equip our items onto our body for us
[23:18] <kymara> perhaps a mockup or early prototype would help more to understand, but i think i have an idea that an interface woudl work very well. as mad says an npc can always explain it if wanted .. if needed .. or just for the sake of having an npc
[23:19] <osl> well, it would be an improvement over using wooden signs...
[23:20] <osl> how about a special chest? in one slot you deposit the item and in the other a scroll with the price...
[23:22] * osl brainstorming
[23:24] <osl> kymara: what would your idea of a gui be like?
[23:25] <kymara> osl please.
[23:26] <kymara> i want to concentrate on release
[23:26] <osl> oh ok
[23:26] <kymara> i'm not interested in hashing out a trading plan now
[23:26] <kymara> durkham just asked for - well - something
[23:26] <kymara> and i replied. that is all.
[23:26] <kymara> i'm no gui planner either - have i ever been?
[23:27] <kymara> i may have opinions on the game design, future, etc, but i'm no gui expert
[23:27] <osl> no, that role has always been mine :)
[23:27] <kymara> anyway i'm sure durkham and mad have actually already got very good ideas on this
[23:27] <kymara> in fact a lot is probably coded
[23:28] <kymara> if you can think of specific needed features please tell them
[23:28] <kymara> if you can think of specific pitfalls in their design ideas, do let them now
[23:28] <kymara> know
[23:29] <osl> the idea would be freely contributing with anything that comes to one's mind
[23:29] <osl> even if it happens to be immediately wrong
[23:30] <kymara> anyway, i just had come to comment on your conviction that npc should be used. that's all.
[23:30] <kymara> i should go to bed, night
[23:30] <osl> night
[23:31] <yoriy> good night
[23:31] <osl> well, the NPC seemed the fastest hack for now
[23:32] <osl> the problem with elaborated solutions is that they may never become implemented
[23:33] <osl> sometimes you need to push them with a simpler solution
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