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[2:54] <postman-bot> ejcruz rented a sign saying "selling black items :P"
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[8:56] <durkham> good morning
[9:06] <CIA-52> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/entity/item/Corpse.java: removed debug output
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[10:35] <kymara> 0.73 is going to be a great release :) can we start thinking about when we should announce a code freeze etc? how much time would people like before that happens?
[10:37] <madmetzger> um...
[10:37] <madmetzger> good question...
[10:42] <madmetzger> what about aiming at the easter days for release?
[10:58] <kymara> when is easter?
[10:58] <kymara> i'm not aksign when is a good time for release just how long you need before we say 'no new features'
[10:58] <kymara> before code freeze except for bug fix
[10:58] <kymara> *asking
[10:59] <kymara> what have you got currently 'open' in code that needs to be finished before release and how long will that take, that is the question
[10:59] <madmetzger> durkham and i got the trading center
[10:59] <madmetzger> it is not done yet
[10:59] <madmetzger> and i am working on the update thingy
[10:59] <kymara> update thingy doesn't need to be in 0.73
[11:00] <madmetzger> but last one is not important atm
[11:00] <kymara> n fact i prefer not
[11:00] <kymara> i'd rather have more time to test something so new
[11:01] <kymara> last time you told me the status of trading center it couldn't be used to trade items only items for money
[11:01] <madmetzger> yes and atm there is no real need for the update thing
[11:01] <madmetzger> that's right, kym
[11:01] <kymara> i think we have enough in release without it but if it's close to ready it might as well go in too
[11:01] <kiheru_afk> the housebuying changes are mostly done; what's missing is good conversation for paying the taxes, lock change requested by a pleyer, and finishing the filling of chests with presents and the note
[11:02] <madmetzger> i think it is not close to ready
[11:02] <kiheru_afk> *player
[11:02] <kymara> conversation i can do, that would take me not long at all. the presents did you just want a check that what you'd chosen was ok?
[11:02] <kymara> lock change we can do together i'm guessing we can do all that within a week
[11:03] <kiheru_afk> the buying code does not add the presents yet. not a hard thing to add
[11:03] * kiheru_afk is now known as kiheru
[11:03] <kymara> madmetzger: perhaps the trading center would be in 0.74, and if it's ready really soon i don't mind having two releases close together either
[11:03] <kiheru> a week should be enough for those changes
[11:04] <kymara> madmetzger: is there anything about it atm that needs to be 'turned off' to not interfere with anything else or to not look broken?
[11:04] <kiheru> trading is a big enough update that getting a fast release mostly for it would be ok
[11:06] <kymara> ok. durkham how about you?
[11:07] <madmetzger> kymara: trading center does not need to be turned off
[11:08] <madmetzger> i was thinking the last few days of quests for low level chars of levels above 20.
[11:09] <madmetzger> i think daily monster quest could be a candidate to earn xp, if the target monsters are more easy for players in a range between 20 and 100 for example
[11:09] <madmetzger> what do you think
[11:09] <madmetzger> ?
[11:11] <kiheru> there's already a ton of new features. I don't mind some new quest than be added and tested fast, but I don't think we need them for a release. (but would be nice for the next one, if they can't be added really fast)
[11:11] <kiheru> *that
[11:11] <madmetzger> i got no experience in writing quests, i just wanted to propose a change to daily monster quest.
[11:14] <kymara> in my experience the daily monster quest is still very achievable if you go get the monster with a friend
[11:15] <kymara> it is partly meant to encourage team play and you get 1/5th of the xp between your current level bands so tha's a big reward
[11:16] <madmetzger> okay, it was just a thought
[11:16] <kymara> ok. i more wanted to ask how much time is needed to finish things up than what else could be added
[11:16] <kymara> we already have loads of new stuff
[11:27] <durkham> we need to turn off the panels
[11:28] <durkham> the food mill is not yet integrated, but need not be turned off
[11:28] <durkham> the rest should not interfere
[11:28] <durkham> updat converter is independant from release
[11:29] <kymara> ok. you haven't really told much about the food mill to me, what will it be used for? i tried testing with it a little but it didn't say
[11:29] <durkham> what you can do atm with it is as follows:
[11:29] <durkham> have an apple in one hand and food mill in other and a flask in your bag
[11:29] <durkham> use food mill and you get red juice :-)
[11:30] <kymara> ah ok. i just had both foodmill and apple in bag
[11:30] <kymara> what is the red juice used for?
[11:30] <durkham> you must hold them in hands
[11:30] <durkham> the idea behind it is you can advance food by working on them
[11:31] <durkham> it is very raw and it would have asked you to look at it , but did nto as your viva was more important
[11:31] <durkham> so it does not need to be intregrated
[11:32] <kymara> ok. can new design thingys get run past me though please?
[11:32] <durkham> the marauroa.jar has changed
[11:32] <kymara> is a version number change needed?
[11:32] <durkham> kym ? you ask me to only contribute to code ?
[11:33] <kymara> no, but you asked me to be 'design leader' or consultant and that you were code leader or consultant
[11:33] <kymara> i consult you on code practise
[11:33] <durkham> so i did not ask you because i thought you needed your time for viva
[11:33] <durkham> and i say it does not need to be included
[11:33] <kymara> ok
[11:33] <durkham> AS you did NOT see it ?
[11:33] <durkham> but yay
[11:33] <durkham> ok
[11:34] <durkham> make sure i do only code
[11:34] <kymara> i did see the commits
[11:34] <kymara> you had mentioned something new and shiny you'd added
[11:34] <kymara> i am not asking you to only do code
[11:34] <kymara> i'm saying that you asked other people to run design features past me
[11:35] <kymara> and you asked other people to consult you on code
[11:35] <kymara> i'd assumed i shoudl also consult you on code best practise
[11:35] <kymara> so i do
[11:35] <kymara> if it's not the case that you want me to control all design aspects of game, and that you can decide design too, that's fine, i must have misunderstood
[11:36] <kymara> i'm also not saying there's anything wrong with the food mill, i was just taking the opportunity to clarify what you wanted from me
[11:36] <durkham> so i should only commit after all is done , not commit things that might help to show new possibilities
[11:36] <durkham> and after have asked if the production thing agreed months ago is still ok ?
[11:36] <durkham> ok
[11:36] <kymara> durkham: please dont take offence.
[11:37] <kymara> why am i not allowed to speak my mind here. i am being as delicate as possible
[11:37] <durkham> you are allowed to say what yu want
[11:37] <kymara> no, i will stop saying anything if you always react badly
[11:38] <kymara> there must be a reason you wanted a design leader.
[11:39] <durkham> because there was a lot of trouble, because ppl were doing things , that were disturbing the overall picture
[11:39] <kymara> yes. and if you think that you will not and so you dont' need to ask me about design, that's fine
[11:39] <kymara> i was just checking that part. i'd thought all design went past me but i was wrong
[11:39] <durkham> i did not know that code designing new feature ( raw as contributing idea) was already beyond what i should do
[11:40] <durkham> i thought if i code it and can show what can be done
[11:40] <kymara> ididnt' say it was.
[11:40] <kymara> durkham
[11:40] <kymara> stop being do defensive.
[11:40] <kymara> please.
[11:40] <durkham> you could find a way to make it nice and shiny
[11:40] <kymara> my concern from a design point of view is not the object
[11:40] <kymara> as such the code for it is fine.
[11:40] <durkham> now i find committing , makes you tell me off for not asking you
[11:40] <kymara> NO
[11:40] <kymara> right
[11:40] <kymara> that's it, i simply cannot have anadult discussion with you without you hining i am telling you off.
[11:40] <kymara> *thinking
[11:42] <durkham> if i cannot contribute code ideas, without being told , i have to ask you for design stuff. (regardless that i was going to ask you ) it is hard for me to decide what i am allowed to do
[11:42] <durkham> i thought you were happy , to see it , but that is not true, you are worried i do things without askin you
[11:42] <durkham> sorry i was mislead
[11:43] <durkham> .
[11:46] <durkham> so waht about the trading center ? shall mad an i work further on it or not ?
[11:46] <kymara> i think i have already answered that above and you are only asking that to be petulant.
[11:47] <durkham> i take that as a yes
[11:48] <kymara> and you are still putting words into my mouth that i did not say, that is very rude.
[11:48] <kymara> i am sorry that i am not diplomatic enough to be able to talk to you about anything delicate
[11:48] <kymara> i need to go sort out some home things now, but i'll come back and read logs later
[11:49] <durkham> 11:32:06) kymara: ok. can new design thingys get run past me though please? <--- that is not the wished : hey nice . lets have a closer look.
[11:49] <durkham> but o i stoppit
[11:50] <durkham> bbl
[11:51] <CIA-52> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/tests/games/stendhal/tools/playerUpdate/UpdatePlayerEntitiesTest.java: make tests pass
[11:52] <durkham> oh i forgot for next release there is a new jar to be included in client
[11:55] <postman-bot> thegreatmaster rented a sign saying "hi all :D"
[11:56] <CIA-52> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/client/gui/j2DClient.java: commenting new bagpanel and new buddypanel
[11:56] <durkham> only o have a commit that show where to do it
[11:56] <madmetzger> hi
[11:57] <madmetzger> sorry, wrong window
[11:59] <kymara> I DID NOT SAY IT WAS BAD>
[12:00] <kymara> do you wish to drive me away durkham?
[12:00] <kymara> honestly?
[12:05] <postman-bot> kiheru rented a sign saying "I'll buy a dark dagger for 20k"
[12:23] <durkham> no kym, i do not want to drive you away.
[12:24] <durkham> and i hope you do not want to drive me away
[12:25] <durkham> if so say it please
[12:49] <CIA-52> arianne_rpg: astridemma * stendhal/src/games/stendhal/server/entity/item/Corpse.java: removed unnecessary indirection
[13:02] <kymara> if you want my feedback on food mill i'd say that iten processing is a good thing, and a general item processor could then have special cases like the milling of food. but also it could be used to fulfil the feature request of being able to make empty scrolls from marked ones, and other requests that onvolved items not specifically food. i don't know how specifcally the classes refer to it being a food mill atm. my concern is i dont
[13:02] <kymara> want a lot of new items as we already have (i feel) a lot of food and drink. if it can be used for processing existing items, fine, but i couldn't think of many foods that we have paired up atm. howveer there are some very good candidates for existing items which can be processed. for example the scrolls i mentioned, and a few others but those ideas would take as input a couple of items and make one, if we're using processor in one hand
[13:02] <kymara> and item to be processed in the other, that would not work
[13:14] <durkham> i must admit the first attempt i made to have something to talk about when talking about processing thing does not cover that.
[13:14] <durkham> if you have an idea on how you want to have it presented to the user , i can think about how to code it.
[13:15] <kiheru> some other item might, eventually, not even need to be carried. (like an anvil or such. forging is atm strictly the job of the smiths, but does not necessarily need to be so in the long term)
[13:16] <durkham> i dont think i said that every tool used for such must be carried in the hand ( sorry if i made the impression that the way i did it is the final and only solution)
[13:16] <kymara> i dunno, i'd suggest an item processor template that can then be used as a food mill, or a 'magic eraser' for marked scrolls, or a sausage making machine, a cocktail mixer, etc
[13:16] <kymara> as a first example we can instantly use that would be really helpful, would be the magic eraser
[13:17] <durkham> how do you want it to be presented to the user ?
[13:17] <kymara> like the food mill was, i think must have eraser in hand
[13:17] <durkham> i do not know how a magic eraser looks like
[13:17] <kymara> though maybe the marked scroll in bag is ok ...
[13:17] <kymara> thats ok, kiheru can draw
[13:17] <kymara> i dont mind if it's gfx not found
[13:19] <durkham> ok from code design view , i prefer not to code for the future but to solve problems as they arise
[13:19] <kymara> as a player i'm trying to think how i would expect it to work. if i'd right click on the marked scroll and expect to see Erase option when i was carrying an eraser. or if i'd right click the eraser and see Use/Erase something at all times
[13:19] <durkham> i wont desing i do-it-all tool
[13:19] <kymara> really?
[13:19] <kymara> that seems straneg to me
[13:19] <durkham> sarcasm ? tx
[13:19] <kymara> no
[13:20] <kymara> it honestly seems strange
[13:20] <kymara> when people wanted a pet, they asked for cat
[13:20] <kymara> but i thought it better to be able to have more pets later
[13:20] <kymara> so tried to make it so that was possible
[13:20] <kymara> and put the general pet stuff in a pet place
[13:20] <kymara> maybe not a great example since you don't like the pets and what to refatcor them, maybe somoene else can think of a better example
[13:21] <durkham> i do not say i do not like them
[13:21] <durkham> i say they need refactoring
[13:22] <kymara> you don't like the way hey are coedd i meant
[13:22] <kymara> they
[13:22] <kymara> anyway, i really dont want furtehr stress and upset this morning
[13:22] <durkham> i think it can be improved
[13:22] <durkham> like most code in stendhal
[13:22] <durkham> back to the code thingy
[13:23] <durkham> there are 2 rules i follow there
[13:23] <durkham> first is : make it work the simplest possible ( KISS )
[13:24] <durkham> second is : you do not know the future so dnt code for (YAGNI you aint gonna need it)
[13:24] <kiheru> I think what was meant we'll want several different producer items, so a general base seems sensible. it certainly does not do everything yet, as it can be extended later
[13:24] <durkham> whenever things are neede on top of what is done , then refactor for it
[13:25] <durkham> if i we have more thing that will be producers , then while coding you will see the common basis and therefore the needed deseign will arise from the code
[13:26] <durkham> if you can hold yourself back from hacky approach ( i fail there often :-D )
[13:27] <durkham> lot of the so called factories in stendhal server are because of a general assumption of generalization
[13:27] <durkham> and YAGNI
[13:27] <durkham> it makes the code harder to read does not add value
[13:28] <durkham> i could think of a producer thingy that takes a name/type for the producer and the things needed to process, and the product
[13:28] <durkham> as params
[13:29] <kiheru> I agree with the general principle. however, we already know we'll want more than one such item (unlike with a lot of those generalizations that are already in the code)
[13:29] <durkham> i was not even sure the thing was wanted at all
[13:29] <kiheru> the base class certainly does not need to do much in the start :-D
[13:30] <kiheru> you could have asked :-)
[13:30] <durkham> so my code only was there to show , how it could work , so you can tell me off for it :-P
[13:30] <durkham> i did not ask because kym was busy with a) viva and b) houses
[13:31] <durkham> and hey yes i waned to have something to present
[13:31] <durkham> i am just bad in providing an example , so we can talk about it
[13:33] <durkham> on the gui side i thought of having content to the producer so you could put things into it , like a corpses content. but i would not tell you before i am able to do those pop up content nicer than it is done right now
[13:33] <kiheru> it's ok. little point hashing that anymore. it's done that way now. just a general note about asking others about gameplay related additions
[13:34] <durkham> IT IS NOT YET ADDED
[13:34] <durkham> I DID NOT ADD IT
[13:34] <kiheru> sounds a reasonable gui idea to me
[13:34] <durkham> I WAS ABOUT ASKING
[13:34] <durkham> but hey who cares
[13:34] <durkham> no more code studies in code
[13:34] <durkham> ok
[13:35] <durkham> and gameplay related addition i was not aware that someone , has objected against adding producer
[13:35] <kiheru> no need to shout. I did not claim it was in the game yet.
[13:35] <durkham> but ok i will just stop about thinking what i would like and how to present it for discussion
[13:36] <durkham> no but you also tell me to ask before i add it , as it is not yet added , ok i start to get it
[13:36] <durkham> do not do things to code , that coudl do something to gaame play
[13:36] <kiheru> no-one has objected against producers
[13:36] <durkham> i should have asked in advance for the vaults too then
[13:36] <durkham> i didnt but then it was ok
[13:37] <durkham> hard to distinguish
[13:37] <durkham> when i had added the vaults i had asked not to use it for further experiments until it is stable , but hey who cares
[13:37] <durkham> just important i asked before i add things to code more than spaces
[13:37] <durkham> .
[13:39] <durkham> can someone else please tell me now that i have to ask ( as i was going to ) . so i do not need to explode another time
[13:40] <durkham> btw kih : "it's done that way now." <-- i can delete and or refactor my code
[13:40] <durkham> nothing is forever
[13:43] <durkham> oh maybe that was about commiting an example first
[13:43] <durkham> duh sorry
[13:45] <durkham> too bad that i really had hoped you ( all of you ) could have liked it . i did it wrong , my bad
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[13:46] <kiheru> yes, it was about that. I don't remember how you proceeded with the vaults. they provided a solution to a well known problem, so they were well received in any case
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[13:49] <kiheru> since you asked: what would be nice to ask is "how should be feature xxxx work for the players?" (and since other would then know, they could be able to suggest a wished for test implementation)
[13:52] <kiheru> I'm sorry for hurting. meant to be more constructive than offensive
[13:59] <kiheru> bbl
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[15:07] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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[15:07] * Topic is 'Stendhal 0.72 and Marauroa 2.6 released: http://arianne.sourceforge.net/?arianne_url=games/game_stendhal#downloadsection][ public server: http://stendhal.game-host.org ][ want to chat?: /join #arianne-chat ][ ANY QUESTIONS?: Just ask them and stick around in the channel, maybe an answer will pop up later ]'
[15:07] * Set by kymara on Sun Feb 22 23:37:04 CET 2009
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[15:45] <durkham2> just in case it was not clear enough : the update feature mad and i are working on , are not adding to, reducing or changing in any other way game play.
[15:45] <durkham2> before mad and i go on working on trading panel. please tell us :
[15:46] <durkham2> how should trading items for money be presented to the users
[15:47] <durkham2> it is a allways on trading panel where the offering and the accepting user need not be online at the same time
[15:47] <durkham2> proxy trade so to say
[15:48] <durkham2> if that is not wanted at all, please tell us too
[15:48] * durkham2 is now known as durkham
[15:54] <postman-bot> sudoble rented a sign saying "i buy fish. 100 if normal one and 200 if they are not common"
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[23:22] <osl> goodbye, netbeans? http://blogs.computerworld.com/the_rise_of_the_blue_sun_ibm_and_sun
[23:40] <osl> about coders and design initiatives: I'd suggest that ideally people's creativity wasn't restraint by organizational procedures and timely reports and that, at the same time, their suggestions could be freely and unconditionally rejected.
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